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addi bracing
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8686		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bob J [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:08 am ]
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When you use addi for bracing can you decrease the braces to 1/4" when building larger sizes--S/j, Dred, Jumbo?
Can I go smaller than 1/4 for 000 and smaller?bob J38993.5106018518
Author:  arvey [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:19 am ]
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If you want you can. It all depends on the top stifness/thickness etc.arvey38993.5143518519
Author:  Jim Watts [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:16 am ]
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Just because a brace is from Adirondak spruce doesn't automatically make it stiffer. Do some simple deflection test of various species.   
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:35 am ]
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[QUOTE=Jim_W] Just because a brace is from Adirondak spruce doesn't automatically make it stiffer. Do some simple deflection test of various species.   [/QUOTE]

Hallelujah! I'm glad someone else thinks that.
I really don't think that Adi is the silver bullet in our quiver. (How's that for mixing up some metaphors?)
We've got to test everything. Well, at least top-related.
I built a fine guitar once with an Adirondack top, but it was the floppiest top in the shop. The Sitka was pleading with me to be used, but the customer had to have it. In my experience, you simply can't trust in generalizations. Test your wood.

Steve
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:38 am ]
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] [QUOTE=Jim_W] Just because a brace is from Adirondak spruce doesn't automatically make it stiffer. Do some simple deflection test of various species.   [/QUOTE]

Hallelujah! I'm glad someone else thinks that.
I really don't think that Adi is the silver bullet in our quiver. (How's that for mixing up some metaphors?)
We've got to test everything. Well, at least top-related.
I built a fine guitar once with an Adirondack top, but it was the floppiest top in the shop. The Sitka was pleading with me to be used, but the customer had to have it. In my experience, you simply can't trust in generalizations. Test your wood.

Steve[/QUOTE]
Aman
Author:  John How [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:54 am ]
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[QUOTE=bob J] When you use addi for bracing can you decrease the braces to 1/4" when building larger sizes--S/j, Dred, Jumbo?
Can I go smaller than 1/4 for 000 and smaller?[/QUOTE]

Not neccessarily but after you determine the stiffness of your top and brace material, you can make your braces whatever thickness you choose and adjust the height of the brace accordingly. I make all my top braces 1/4" thick no matter what material I use (I do mostly use Addy & sometimes that euro stuff) and then I decide how tall they will be based on deflection feedback. As Mr Somogyi has demonstrated, it is the height of the brace, not the thickness that will contribute most to the stiffness with the least mass.John How38993.5801041667
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am ]
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exactly... making a brace one unit wider will double its strenth, while doubling its height will add 8x the strength. (cube rule).

I am with the others. Test it. I have begun testing the density of my materials as well as the defection.
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:34 am ]
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John How is a very wise man.

Colin

PS I always use that Euro stuff!
Author:  John How [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:38 am ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] John How is a very wise man.

Colin

PS I always use that Euro stuff![/QUOTE]

That's not something I've often heard!!!!
Regardless of what wood you use, all wood from any species is not created equal so feel it, flex it, bang it, then shape it accordingly.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:14 am ]
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John is SO right!
Mike Collins
www.collinsguitars.com
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:18 am ]
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All things being equal, I prefer the addy for its whiteness...

Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:32 am ]
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Whiteness? Pshaw! Then get some Sitka and bleach it!


Hey...no more go-bars for you Mr. K......


Don Williams38993.6900810185
Author:  CarltonM [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:40 am ]
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird]I really don't think that Adi is the silver bullet in our quiver.[/QUOTE]
Steve, I think you may be barking up the wrong alley, there. *

It seems that the answer to this question is that there's no "yes-or-no" answer to cover any aspect of lutherie. The answer is always "maybe," or "it depends." Ain't it great?

*I once heard someone on a call-in radio program refer to a politician by saying, "I wouldn't trust him with a ten-foot pole!"
Author:  arvey [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:14 pm ]
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My first responce was very short, when I mentioned it depends on the top thicknes/stifness I was also refering to the stifnes of the Adi. Some of the worst wood I have tried to build with was Adirondac spruce. I got a couple of tops once that I tried one and was so disapointed that I removed the top and replaced it with some from another source. The tops were like rubber. Some brace wood I was planning on using once became kindling. Good Adirondak is good stuff but there is some real crap being sold out there. So as Carlton Points out, the answer is maybe. At the same time my bracing is almost always 1/4" or less.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:56 pm ]
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Yes, a good rule of thumb is don't burn your bridges before you count them. Or, a good Sitka brace, in hand, is worth two mediocre Adi braces in the bush.
Or something like that.

Don, I've read before that you were a fan of Sitka.
So am I, though I'd never admit that where Colin could read it.

Steve
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:15 pm ]
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Being from the part of the world I'm in, I've never thought of using adi for tops or brace wood. There is sooooo much great sitka, engleman and now Shanes Lutz that we don't get much request for Adi round here (of course if it grew here maybe that would be different ).

That being said, I would have to agree with our grizzled veterains that everything depends on the stiffness of the wood you have in hand.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:27 am ]
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I have some 55 year old Red Cedar I rendered from handles of some old linemen pole tools of my Grandfather's. The tools had 3 1/2" dia handles that were over 10'long. After cleaning them up I discovered they were turned from perfectly quartered Red Cedar. I squared them up to 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 and made some brace blanks out of those. Surprisingly they were as stiff as any Adi I have ever had. A bit heavier but not by much. I have built 3 guitars with this Cedar. I like it but Lance wouldn't. It is darn sure not white, but they sure smell nice
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:52 am ]
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird]

Don, I've read before that you were a fan of Sitka.
So am I, though I'd never admit that where Colin could read it.

Steve[/QUOTE]

See I read it! I too like Sitka, very good kindling

Colin
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:36 am ]
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Well, that reminds me of the excellent recipe I have for Euro-smoked trout.

Steve
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:43 am ]
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[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Well, that reminds me of the excellent recipe I have for Euro-smoked trout.

Steve[/QUOTE]

Steve,

If you bend over backwards any further, you're in grave danger of falling flat on your face
Author:  nickton [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:05 am ]
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How about making braces of Port Orford cedar? Seems like this would be one of the best. If it was good enough for sir Thomas Lipton or a Japanese temple maker, why not for a guitar builder? It's got an amazing texture and is my favorite smelling wood so far. It is also stronger than spruce from what I hear.

Since we're on the subject of braces I have another question, the answer to which I have gratefully received a few clues from reading this thread already. I've noticed how some builders shape their braces with radical rounded little mountains on them, which seems to be a more exagerated form of the scalloping seen on old Martins. Is this arrived at through using a stiffness gauge? The strength of height must be involved, but what else goes into the shaping of such braces? An example that comes to mind is on the top for the 13th fret guitar project I saw a picture of on line. nickton38994.8142361111
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:09 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Dave White]
Steve,

If you bend over backwards any further, you're in grave danger of falling flat on your face [/QUOTE]

Dave,

You are probably right. However, reading between the lines, it sounds like you might be wanting the recipe?

Steve
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:19 pm ]
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Bob--I'm sorry this worthwhile topic took a radical swerve. Let me add something germane to the discussion. Remember that if you are building a guitar with a tighter waist, you will be contributing strength to the structure simply with the shape. With those sides converging closer to the soundhole than, say, a dreadnought would do, the top will be stiffer in that area. And, same goes for a narrower lower bout.
For the OM and OOO, I wouldn't hesitate using 1/4" bracing. Smaller box than that, you might be able to use narrower bracing, but again, test it. I don't know what everyone else does on brace height--which might be an interesting topic--but mine are right at 5/8" at the cross.
Everything else, except for above the soundhole, is 1/2" at its tallest.

Steve
Author:  Homeboy [ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:06 am ]
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In my deflection tests of tops I have almost consistently found that Sitka spruce is in fact stiffer that Adi spruce at a given thickness. The advantage to Adi spruce seems to be that it will me much lighter than the sitka. I could easily be wrong but I think that sitka is stiff but dense and heavy compared to Adi. The Adi spruce is almost as stiff or as stiff but it will weigh much less. This could all be taken with a grain of salt.
Homeboy
Author:  Mario [ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:46 am ]
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almost consistently found that Sitka spruce is in fact stiffer that Adi spruce at a given thickness.

Correct. And at the same thickness, iron is stiffer, still... But iron would suck as a guitar's top brace, now wouldn't it?

What is of concern is stiffness to weight. Instead of measuring various materials for stiffness at the same dimensions, measure them at the same mass. So, par down the Sitka brace to where it weighs the same as the red spruce brace, and then measure. If it's good red, it'll be stiffer given the same mass(and height).

But light weight isn't always the answer, now, is it? Nor is stiffness the final word....

Balance.
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